Tips from CSIP's: Staying Proficient - All Comments

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Bendrix Bailey — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 02:09:00 GMT

I had a similar experience at KPYM on the ILS06 flying vectors to final in solid IFR. The controller gave me direct to a fix, which of course did not appear in the flight plan. Rather than get in a dither about entering the fix I just asked for a heading to the fix and kept Vectors to Final loaded. Later I went out in VFR and played a bit with the automation to figure out what happened, and discovered what you put here for us (thanks by the way).

I also discovered that you can get FAR behind the aircraft while loading approaches and making changes that have unexpected consequences, like unloading approaches you think you have loaded and sending the autopilot off on its own. For example, if you tried pressing direct to (the fix) and activting that you would unload the approach so upon arriving at the fix the autopilot would not follow the approach course. Attempting to reaload and activate VTF will unload the direct to fix, and so on. Can be very confusing in hard IFR moving at 120kt.

Here is a problem. There are a number of fixes out on the 06 approach and they are particular to the type of approach. There is a GPS and an ILS. The only fixes that will show up on the flight plan are those for the approach you loaded...

My solution may be crude, but I would continue to load and when given vectors, activate Vectors To Final as always. This was the first and only time I have been given a fix rather than a heading on VTF. If given a fix, I just ask for the heading to the fix and plug it in. Then if you want you can start spinning up chart pictures to see where that fix is and make sure it is on the final approach course. Although the picture chart is not to be used for navigation, it is accurate and could provide guidance to maintaining altitude till past the fix. My experience with ATC is that they are not picky about giving help like that.

Question for any FAR experts; what are the requirements for a Controller when they have given the pilots a Vectors To Final clearance and started giving the vectors? Are they not required to continue supplying vectors all the way to the final approach course?

Nice discussion though, and great example that is well explained.

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Bob Urschel — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 01:56:53 GMT

Erin,

I'm looking forward to practicing this. On more than one occasion I've found myself manually entering some fix that was on the chart but somehow mysteriously disappearing from my flight plan!

In your example you say .... "Then I push the FPL key, get my cursor and highlight the FA (in this example, DEASY), push MENU and choose "ACTIVATE LEG?". '

Wouldn't you actually highlight ESCON and activate the leg HOMLY-ESCON with the autopilot set HDG NAV or HDG NAV APR ?

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Buster Offutt — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:32:52 GMT

Thanks guys. these are all good" ways to skin" the proverbial cat. I think mainly it is what you get used to doing, and if your training and real life experiences prove that out to be a safe procedure for you, then stick with that.

I find like others at times by reading thru the posts that a modification or refined technique one of my fellow Cirri drivers has discovered, and have implemented it, and improved my own procedure. fly safe fly often, happy new year Buster O.

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Gary Bulzan — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 17:00:41 GMT

I dont usually activate vectors either but had a problem when shooting the ILS 16 at KHPN. The 430 wouldnt let me remove the hold at HESTR when using HESTR as the Transition a message came up on the 430 Invalid flight plan modification. when using activate vectors to final with no TRANS. the hold went away. Not sure why ?

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Stuart McClay Smith — Thu, 25 Dec 2008 21:26:45 GMT

Another twist, on a GPS approach I never "activate" the approach. I use your method above and intercept the final approach course by activating the leg that I will intercept. Too many unexpected things can happen. If you have loaded the approach with a specific transition and subsequently activate it under GPSS, your airplane will turn to the first fix on the transition, even if you have been vectored inside of it.

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Scott Dennstaedt — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:50:24 GMT

Couple of comments Erin.

You say, "You see NONE of the other waypoints that appear on your paper approach chart!" Maybe a more accurate statement is that you see none of the waypoints outside of the FAF. If there are stepdown fixes inside the FAF, they will be included.

Still another choice and the one that I prefer is to bring up a bearing pointer to MZB. When the tail of the bearing pointer says 002, then you are at ESCON.

You say, "and the autopilot can still inercept final and track it in GPSS mode, no matter how far out on final you happen to capture the course."

If this were a GPS or RNAV approach, that would be great. Personally, I wouldn't want to be switching the CDI to the localizer after tracking the GPS course inbound especially if you are vectored close in. Instead I would intercept the localizer course using the autopilot in APR mode with the CDI set to the localizer. That way I can monitor the localizer signal as I am approaching it and identify that the front course is set. I wouldn't want to discover the localizer was not functional or the wrong course was set as I am approaching glideslope intercept.

Here's an article in IFR magazine that I wrote about this very issue. I have a slightly different method to deal with this issue:

See: www.chesavtraining.com/.../Dennstaedt_Waypoints_Go_AWOL.pdf.

re: Thundersnow!

Barry S. Lerman — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 16:38:20 GMT

Jerry,

Ditto here last night - 5PM eastern. Driving home in snowstorm, all of a sudden the sky lit up as well. Very pretty - but I must say it is so rare, that at first, I was shocked by it as I wasn't expecting it. Interesting, that it was just one VERY large bolt, one thunderboom and it was over.

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Frank Convertini — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:55:55 GMT

Wish I read your thread before I got caught in that trap. I now do exactly what you suggest and forget the Vectors to Final.

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

David Rittenhouse — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:26:30 GMT

Good advice. Couldn't you also push HDG-NAV-APP and this would allow automatic sequencing and switching the garmin from gps to vloc with slewing of the in bound course? I'd just like a short cut from having to remember to activate, hit vloc and dial in the inbound during the most intense phase of the flight.

re: Thundersnow!

Jerrold Seckler — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:16:02 GMT

We get thundersnow here at least 1-2 times/year.

This AM it was snowing like crazy as I was going to work and all of a sudden the sky lit up in a beautiful lightning display.

re: Thundersnow!

Scott Dennstaedt — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:28:28 GMT

Luke,

Probably a pretty rare event in Seattle. How about thundersnow in Baton Rouge, LA on December 11th?

KBTR 111153Z COR 27008KT 1/2SM TSSN FG OVC003CB 01/M01 A2982 RMK AO2 TSB53 SLP097 OCNL LTGIC VC SW TS VC SW MOV E

Living in the mid-Atlantic for many years, thundersnow has occurred during several blizzards in MD to include 79 and 83. And we had a strong squall line go through in April many years ago that brought down some heavy, wet snow, gusty winds and lightning. It is also a somewhat frequent occurrance during low topped thunderstorm events downwind of the Great Lakes. I was actually out at the Aviation Weather Center visiting when a pilot reported hearing thunder (while on the surface) in heavy snow squalls in the NJ/PA area. This caused the forecaster at the AWC to amend her forecast to include the possibility of thunderstorms.

re: If they're right...

John Fiscus — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:10:41 GMT

Ha! You've never seen Seattle drivers trying to maneuver on ice. ;)

All things considered, it could have been much worse. We did have a few trees go down and I lost power at my place for a couple of hours, but nothing terrible. For now, we're dealing with record low temps here in the Pacific NW. I'm in a good spot, though, having worked in Duluth for 2 years. 20 degrees *above* zero is nothing!

re: If they're right...

Scott Dennstaedt — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 22:54:01 GMT

It can't be that bad...I don't see any thunderstorms in the forecast...

re: Icing Tips

John Fiscus — Sat, 06 Dec 2008 01:58:11 GMT

True with just about every rule of thumb I know. Looks like we'll both be in business for quite a while!

re: Icing Tips

Scott Dennstaedt — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 20:00:11 GMT

John,

Agreed. However, the devil is in the details with respect to icing. I tend to ignore many of the icing rules of thumb, because many of them are dangerous in some situations.